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Joe, my immediate goal is to shift the debate from 'Grand Chess 2' to 'Grander Chess'. If there was a 'Grandest Chess' posted here, then it could host the debate. I will keep an eye on this thread.
Joe: I suggest you re-read my related comments slowly, perhaps one word at a time. I have no desire to name a game Grand Shatranj 2, 3, 4 or Grand Shatranj with any other name extension.
Gary, I'd be complimented if you put out a 'Grand Shatranj II', but Christine has already claimed the name. Christine, you have to send me the ZRF first, otherwise I let Gary have the name. David, I'm perfectly willing to have the naming controversy here, under the title of 'Grand Shatranj', because the controversy has some legitimacy (and I don't mind a little advertising of my games either ;) Since I firmly believe Grand Shatranj (and Great Shatranj, which you playtested) are good games, and neither is out separately yet for this controversy to spill all over their pages, then it is a better forum than the game of some poor caught-in-the-crossfire poster who was probably trying to praise the original game. Besides, I'm hoping that you put out a Great Shatranj game with your own unique stamp on it. ;-) Seriously, it may be good to have an editorial policy about names. I think it should be simple. 'No Poaching!' would be a good first approximation, but I believe it needs to go further than that. My 2 rules suggestion: appropriate permission or lost in antiquity I believe are at least a good start. The lost in antiquity rule allows us to call our games 'chess' as Fergus has indirectly pointed out. (Christine, you got 1st crack at GC2, so Fergus gets credit for that - okay, you get credit first, but I'm not going to admit it.) But I honestly don't see a problem with Gary doing a variant of my game and using the name GC2 or 3 or whatever, as long as he got my permission in advance. And I would want to see the game to be sure it measured up (or down, as the case may be) to my standards as set in the 'original'. If those conditions obtained, and were demonstrated to the editor, then the name should stand. And now I've got too much of a headache to actually make my chess moves. This being serious stuff is not fun. Well, fortunately, I'm rarely really serious, seriously! Now, back to having fun.
this is really getting messy, i guess this is as good a time as ever to mention, Joe, that i was going to release a 'grand shatranj' also, maybe i could name mine 'grand shatranj 2' and release it before yours he he :) would that be ok?
Joe: You may have misunderstood my comment. When I stated '...But, if I made a game and called it Grand Shatranj 2, or Chess with Different Armies 2, then those names are indeed problematic.' I meant that 'me' not being the inventor, should not use those names. You [Joe] having created Grand Shatranj, have every right to have a Grand Shatranj 2, 3, 4 , etc. Whereas I should not make any game called Grand Shatranj ____. Case in Point is Pillars of Medusa. I first called it Medusa Chess... not knowing there was already a Medusa Chess. 'Medusa Chess 2' would be inappropriate, for reasons indicated in other comments here. Thus, a third name was chosen.
Fergus, my objections were, to a great extent, pro forma. But the fact is that my variant is deliberately named 'Grand' to refer to Mr. Freeling's game, and I made that clear in my write-up. I deliberately copied the setup to solve the problems I felt existed with my 10x8 variant because I think the Grand Chess board and setup is an elegant solution to those problems. What I didn't want was people to see presets for Grand Shatranj and think: 'Oh, great, here's some idiot that didn't get the message, even though it's in black and white' (even though on my machine it's in black lettering on a grey background). Wow, there are several messages here, while I'm typing this - sorry, Fergus, saw your comment between my answer to christine and edited it to name her rather than have it look like a reply to your comment (this is getting convoluted). Okay, back to the original topic. Whatever that was. I truly don't see a problem with naming something after something else under these conditions: 1) with appropriate permission; 2) if even the direct descendants of the inventor are unaware they are the heirs. In this case, they can't come after you. :-) Okay, if the origins of the name are lost in antiquity might be a better rule. Gary, if it was good enough, and it followed #1 & 2 above well, heck, do it - you playtested Grand Shatranj I enough! And thanks for that. And, finally, Christine, no, I'm just a plodder with no creativity...
yeah good point Fergus, 'great' and 'grand' should be banned!! shame on you Joe, can't you come up with something just a bit original lol
I see no problem with the Grand Shatranj name. It is akin to the naming convention seen with Grand Chess, Great Chess, Chess with Different Armies, etc. I see no problem with these types of names. But, if I made a game and called it Grand Shatranj 2, or Chess with Different Armies 2, then those names are indeed problematic.
Joe's last comment appeared too quickly to be a response to mine. It is a response to Christine's comment, and mine just got between them. Also, I'm thinking the inventor of Great Chess, not just the inventor of Shatranj, might be concerned about you using the name of Great Shatranj. :)
Christine, you're right! Do you think I should write to her?
Joe, my comments on the name Grand Chess 2 were specific to names that clearly suggest a sequel to earlier games. In my own case, I have created Grand Cavalier Chess, which is something of a synthesis between Grand Chess and Cavalier Chess. In this name, 'Cavalier Chess' is a noun, and 'Grand' is a modifier, as the game is a sequel to Cavalier Chess, a game I also invented, but expanded in a manner similar to Grand Chess.
i dunnoooo, i think the inventor of shatranj is gonna be upset about this :)
I feel I have to weigh in on the subject of re-using grand, well-established names for new variants, as I am soon to post presets for my 'Two Large Shatranj Variants', respectively Great and Grand Shatranj. I agree in general with the opinions expressed by Fergus Duniho and Gary Gifford on Grand Chess 2, but there are circumstances where this general prohibition of re-using a name should not hold. Specifically, I wrote to Christian Freeling to ask his permission to call one variant 'Grand Shatranj', and before I posted 2Large I sent him a copy to vet. Had he in any way objected to me about the name or the game, I would have changed it; and should he have any objections now or in the future, I will change it. Should it be felt necessary, I can produce the emails. In my posting of 2Large, I make clear exactly what my debt to Mr. Freeling and Grand Chess is. Under these circumstances, I feel my use of the name and setup for Grand Shatranj is acceptable, even if I am over-reaching. Now, back to having fun.
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